Tirelessly prolific, Takashi Miike has directed almost any kind of film over the course of the so far over three and a half decades of his career. With one exception: documentary. But after working with Ichikawa Danjūrō XIII, one of today’s most esteemed kabuki artists and heir to a dynasty of kabuki masters, he wanted to capture the rising star's ceremonial succession in the complex Japanese art form. Shumei: The Living Legacy of Kabuki marks his return to Venice, premiering out of competition 16 years after the double screening of 13 Assassins and Zebraman 2. Being served Campari at the festival’s Campari lounge, the multi-hyphenate filmmaker spoke with Lidanoir about his return to the festival, exploring a new film form, and opening an elite entertainment to a broader audience.
Lida Bach: You have been to Venice several times, two of them in the main competition. How does it feel to come back to the festival after such a long time?
Takashi Miike: Well, it’s been 16 years since my last visit to the festival, believe it or not! Time really flies. Because this time around it’s a documentary, I’d never thought I’d be invited to the Venice Film Festival again. So you can imagine how honoured and pleased I am to be invited with this title. I’m excited to show what Danjuro is like, and I really want to reach an international audience to convey what a fascinating person he is.
LB: This is your first documentary film. What was different for you in approaching a documentary? You have worked in almost every genre, but for some reason never in the documentary form. Would you like to expand on that?
TM: I was really surprised to be considered to make a documentary this time. I’ve been asked to work in a lot of different genres, but this was my first time doing such a project, so I actually wondered why I was being asked to do it and what the expectation was.
Before the ceremony in which Ichikawa Ebizo became Danjuro, I had already cast him in two of my films. Then I was asked to work with him as a Kabuki actor, and realized that he is completely different from other actors. What interested me was the charm of his personality, rather than simply his performance.
He’s not such an easy person to get along with. He has a rebellious spirit, and that can make him difficult, but it’s those kinds of personalities that really fascinate me. Most actors in the Japanese film industry are good kids. They listen to their agencies’ instructions, are always on time, and generally commit to a respectable lifestyle. Danjuro was someone who jumped right out of that world, so I was very interested in him.
Then there was the shūmei: the succession ceremony, when he became Danjuro. There was this progression from Ebizo to Danjuro, and all I wanted to do was document that process. I was purely motivated by my interest in him as a person. It wasn’t that I particularly wanted to make a documentary because I had never made one before. Danjuro was there, and I had the offer to make this documentary, so I grabbed it. So it all was more about the subject than about the specific cinematic form.
LB: Kabuki is a very complex art form with a complex history, and it’s different aspects are extremely difficult to understand, especially in a short time. For Western audiences, who may have only a vague idea of what Kabuki actually is, did you make the documentary with accessibility in mind? Did you want to introduce Kabuki to people who know very little about it, or was it primarily for an audience with some preexisting knowledge?
TM: I don’t think it’s possible to make people fully understand Kabuki in 90 minutes. It’s a very complicated art form, and I think it’s especially difficult for Western audiences to understand all of it. My purpose with this film was not necessarily to explain Kabuki in detail. I made it for people who have heard of Kabuki but don’t really know much about it, as well as for people who already have some idea of what it is.
I don’t know if I completely understand Kabuki myself, but I can say that Danjuro is very close to Kabuki. In Japan, he occupies a very high-ranking position within that world. But if you ask, “What is this creature? What is this play? What the hell are you talking about?”—that’s not really the point. Kabuki has a unique beauty, and I want people to feel that. A little while ago, sumo, geisha, and Mount Fuji were popular concepts associated with Japan. Now sushi and anime are very popular. Rather than explaining Kabuki in detail, I want people to become interested in it through Danjuro. If you go to Japan, people may be interested in whether you know about Kabuki or Danjuro.
My purpose is to let people know who this young artist is, even if they don’t fully understand Kabuki. I hope the charm of Danjuro comes through in the film.
I also hope for people who have never heard the word Kabuki to grow to appreciate it as an art form, as well as Danjuro himself. Kabuki at the moment, even in Japan, is kind of high-class. It’s a step above ordinary theatre. If you go to Kabuki, that is considered somewhat more sophisticated as an art form in Japan, and it can be difficult for ordinary people to go there and feel comfortable with it. But I really wish that people would become more interested. I’d be really pleased if somebody did that, instead of just going to see Mount Fuji or something. That is my purpose.
LB: Danjuro’s family line is the most famous clan of Kabuki actors in Japan. Should we imagine that kind of world like a clique of superstars? Or are Kabuki actors still quite discreet in their personal lives and without the superstar aura that, for example, pop stars might have?
TM: Danjuro is already a very famous person in Japan, and he is already a big star. But when he comes to a movie set, he is really there to learn about film. He is more enthusiastic than anyone else. He’s impressed by the other actors’ performances. He’s like, “Oh, I see.” Since Kabuki is a different art form, Kabuki actors are different from normal film actors. Of course, he is at the top of the Kabuki world, but compared with other Kabuki actors, he is nothing like them. He is very honest And humble.
There aren’t many people who are like that. In a sense, he is a clumsy person. Not in the sense that he would need to be particularly careful about things. Rather that he is just very straightforward. Sometimes it’s not easy to be that way in the world today, and his honesty can sometimes cause him problems. The people around him are his disciples, and he has to look after them. In that respect, he is really strict. But apart from that, he is actually a very approachable person.
LB: You spoke about being approached to make this documentary. Did you have a personal connection to Kabuki yourself, not just through Danjuro as an actor? What does the art form mean to you personally?
TM: Of course, everyone knows about Kabuki, but few people actually go to see it. I was interested in Kabuki, but then I met Danjuro, and through him I got more opportunities to go and see it. There are various kinds of Kabuki and many different kinds of performances. But even among them, Danjuro has an extraordinary aura that nobody else has. That aura comes from his artistry, but also from what has been handed down through his family, his own DNA. That really stands out to me, and that’s why I became fascinated by him. I’d say that my first real encounter with the art form was through him.
LB: As we have to jump to the last questions, do you have a new project that you are currently working on? And, since you are so prolific, will you also make more documentary films in the future?
TM: I would love to, of course, but I’m not sure what I should be doing to make another documentary. I’m doing my job as a filmmaker, making movies, and I’m interested in the people I meet. But I’m not actively looking for a particular person or subject to document.
With this documentary, I found someone interesting enough to follow. I might make another documentary if I find someone or a subject that interests me enough. But I’m probably not going to deliberately or purposefully look for someone. Maybe it’s fate. That’s my stance towards documentary filmmaking.
LB: And what about your next projects?
TM: There are two films. One of them is still in post-production. One is from America, and the other comes from London producers I’ve worked with in the past. It’s going to be really interesting because I brought foreign actors to Japan, where I grew up in Tokyo, around the Kabukicho area, and had them act here, on my home turf.The material is still being edited, so I don’t know yet when they will be released.
LB: Thank you for the interview!